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threeheaded monkey

What do you think about research?

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Hey.

 

I really would like to know what the others are thinking about the way we do research in the game. That's it,heh.

 

See, I was playing Stellaris a lot and the game is absolutely amazing, there's just one thing that doesn't seem right to me and that's how you do research. I'm more the kind of guy who likes to see where I am, where I'm heading to and what I have to do to get there.  But choosing from randomly popping up techs makes me feel like sitting in front of a slotmachine, pushing buttons for an unseen jackpot.

 

As for The Universim I feel the same way, but with more "frustration".  The research as it takes place right now actually offers  no proof of progression. When selecting a certain perk and researching it, I can only imagine which opportunities may arise afterwards. 

 

The game deserves more.

 

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I dislike it too! I'd rather have a research tree with bars or graphs of what mutiplies. besides that, I would love it if I was able to also line up the secondairy research

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Hey guys, thanks a lot for your feedback. We will discuss this internally with the team. 

 

Edit: Please continue throwing ideas at us. Maybe even sketch how you envision Research system to change. 

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Am 29.3.2018 um 21:57 schrieb AKoshelkov:

Please continue throwing ideas at us.

 

I'm  with the idea of adding more options to the evolution tower, whatsoever. It's the main link to the nuggets, so :

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Kerby84:

different options that have direct influence on the society

 

As for the logic of "research" in the game:

  • No godly wage, no research! Without treating them, either good or bad, I can't gain "power" to do research. That's what  god powers are for!
  • Research should be based on logic ; example: without tools the nuggets can't hunt, so they can't get leather/fur,  so they can't make clothing,...

I think having sperated tech trees would be good, according to the era specific demands.  In the stone age there could  be "Tools", "Water", "Food" and "Comfort", each offering ways of either researching new techs or upgrading existing ones.  Both of it is likely going to expand when progressing through the game.

 

Oh, and happy easter, everybody!

 

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@Kerby84 I was reading through these and one thing that stuck out to me was having them pay resources. I like the idea of having them make 'donations' or 'sacrifices' to learn new things. Great ideas!

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@Bolerro That was my idea behind the two shrines. Some people prefer a RTS style resource management to unlock new technologies and some prefer a more godly way by spending faith which could be gained through prayer and other tasks. This solution could please both player types and it´d  help (in my opinion) to make the universim a unique god game for a broad audience. Sure... Double work for The Universim team but I think we all want the universim to become the best game for different playstyles which results in a a broad and pleased audience.

 

15 hours ago, threeheaded monkey said:

Research should be based on logic ; example: without tools the nuggets can't hunt, so they can't get leather/fur,  so they can't make clothing,...

Of course. That makes sense.Those are basic technologies for me. I agree. Basic technologies should be obtainable in the starter shrine (epicenter)

 

If I continue my idea with your help...

 

Basic Technologies are avaiable in the Epicenter (Shrine of Wisdom):

 

First should be:

simple tools -> wood cutting and stone mining -> taming of fire -> first buildings including huts and water system (huts have a little fireplace. in there we see light, so they need fire in their stone huts) and so on. 

 

those technologies should be a mix of faith and resource cost. some only researchable trough faith, some only trough resources. once all basic technologies are researched, the player (god) should choose between two ways to proceed.

 

the godly way which unlocks a new set of technologies for the stoneage which are all obtainable trough faith (but follow a logic rule in order to unlock. you can't unlock a high cost technology before you unlocked a basic one... for example... 

->commitments for breeding, prayer and so on. -> more advanced temple to gain more faith -> godly powers to support nuggets: shield of faith that protects nuggets from nature, manna rain to provide food fast if needed...

 

Your nuggets could learn from you.

example:

-you need to unlock the godly power "godly hunt" which allows you to shoot many arrows from the sky to the ground to hunt wild animals. Your nuggets try to imitate you and learn to build arrows and bows sooner or later. you have no direct control of the learning process. your nuggets learn instantly or you have to perform the miracle over and over again until they learn. but you are there to feed them so no need to rush. those poor stupid mortals. (of course your nugget's can't be harmed trough your godly arrows.) 

-you need to unlock the godly power "harvest of god" which allows you to harvest food from wild plants. Your nuggets try to imitate you and sooner or later they start to build a farm and cultivate food plants.

 -you need to unlock the godly power "heal" or "mass heal" and your nuggets sooner or later learn to build a hospital.

...

 

If you do not enjoy being an almighty god you can perform a very costly miracle  "crisis of belief" which consumes all faith you have and 50% -75% of your nuggets will die but the rest evolves to a secular point of view. Your nuggets learn to protect themselves and do not count on godly help. ->secular shrine

 

 

the secular way which unlocks a new set of technologies for the stoneage which are all obtainable trough resources and nugget intellect. a school building needs to be unlocked to invent new technologies. nuggets auto assign to the school building and generate intellect.

->society laws for breeding and so on ->school building -> bow and arrow -> fishing hut -> eatery -> farming -> medicine-> and of course bunkers to protect themselves from natural disasters.

 

The school system may allow you to progress slower in the beginning stone age and medieval era because intellect ist a resource you need to collect beside real resources to invent things, but in the later game your nuggets learn faster. 

 

You still slowly gain faith but have no influence on the rate. Faith regeneration depends on the number of nuggets alive. You're limited to basic god powers like rain, thunder, tornadoes, rainbows, flying birds...

 

If you want to change the way nuggets see you, you can perform a special miracle "rain of belief" which cost an enormous amout of faith - and over time the secular society may change to a godly one and your nuggets forget secular only buildings like bunkers and destroy them to praise you. Of course not all nuggets agree. So 50% to 75% of your nuggets die during this process. -> godly shrine

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vor 12 Stunden schrieb Kerby84:

once all basic technologies are researched, the player (god) should choose between two ways to proceed.

 

A kind of once-in-a-lifetime decision? I could rather imagine that we are always able to decide, if we want to use  the "secular" or the "spritual" resources for research/progression. It could be a modern equivalent to Black&White's "being a good god" or "being a bad god".

 

Just think of your nuggets faces if you keep on using their resources for research all over the time,lol.

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10 hours ago, threeheaded monkey said:

A kind of once-in-a-lifetime decision?

 

No because change in mind costs. In real life and in game. It's my opinion of course. "Secularity" and "spirituality" exclude each other. at least if there is no other way. The idea could be a third mixed way between those two decisions which allows not specialized technology. so renaissance man type of gameplay. you can do a bit of everything but are not specialized and do not have access to high tier technologies or god powers. But I think a seperation between two mighty tech lines either god or world is benificial. that does not mean  that you're not able to be a "bad god" and steal resources from your nuggets if you choose the secular way. basic godly interactions should be avaiable all time. but a god without a fellowship is less mighty.  And as I said... there could be costly switch options to change between those two specialized ways. 

 

23 hours ago, Kerby84 said:

If you do not enjoy being an almighty god you can perform a very costly miracle  "crisis of belief" which consumes all faith you have and 50% -75% of your nuggets will die but the rest evolves to a secular point of view. Your nuggets learn to protect themselves and do not count on godly help. ->secular shrine

 

23 hours ago, Kerby84 said:

If you want to change the way nuggets see you, you can perform a special miracle "rain of belief" which cost an enormous amout of faith - and over time the secular society may change to a godly one and your nuggets forget secular only buildings like bunkers and destroy them to praise you. Of course not all nuggets agree. So 50% to 75% of your nuggets die during this process. -> godly shrine

 

I think it should represent your playstile. They should have technologies only avaiable to non believers or believers.. a bunker is the best example. if you have a god watching after you... you don't need to care about those things and can focus on other things. if nuggets need to take care of their own security they need to have different technologies avaiable.

 

Just think of your nuggets faces if you throw them into a sacrifice altar once in a while. ;-)

 

 

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Ahh. It seems I haven't seen that correlation  while reading yor post,heh.  Sorry about that.

 

See, I absolutely like what you have been posting here,  just a thing: Still I think it's too "polar" . Take our world.  There are people out there having a very spiritual life ( the Hindus) and people  being more oriented towards the secular aspects of existence, such as the "western people", as me,lol.  So there is a huge spectrum, not just black or white, at the same time.

 

 

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Kerby84:

They should have technologies only avaiable to non believers or believers.

 

Both could be within. It just has to be dependant on  the amount of nuggets that are believers and which are not;  and if you want to research a "believer" or a "non-believer" technology.

Let's say there are not enough non-believers around, then researching a believer-tech could take longer or need more resources to unlock.

And if you then would like to speed it up, you would have to discipulize some of your nuggets ofc.

 

Also there is no conflict to this:

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Kerby84:

I think it should represent your playstile.

 

Offers a lot of gaming possibilities, I would say.

 

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38 minutes ago, threeheaded monkey said:

See, I absolutely like what you have been posting here,  just a thing: Still I think it's too "polar" . Take our world.  There are people out there having a very spiritual life ( the Hindus) and people  being more oriented towards the secular aspects of existence, such as the "western people", as me,lol.  So there is a huge spectrum, not just black or white, at the same time.

I like your ideas, too. But i still think a seperation between a godly society and a scientific society (at a definied point, maybe not so soon) is needed to maximize the gamplay for those two playstiles. As I read in the forums some like the aspect of rts building games. that would be more the scientific society with a godly aspect. old school Black & white players may choose the godly way. maybe a third way like i mentioned could be an idea for a semi mix of those two playstiles.

 

Instant change in mind... I thought about your words again...:

38 minutes ago, threeheaded monkey said:

Let's say there are not enough non-believers around, then researching a believer-tech could take longer or need more resources to unlock.

And if you then would like to speed it up, you would have to discipulize some of your nuggets ofc.

 

If every technology avaiable has two options... a godly option and a secular option  - you could develop a secular or godly society slowly over time. but still they have to exclude each other.

For example...

 

Tech Tree:

 

School                      OR                    religious school

Bunker                      OR                    shield of faith

Intellect boost         OR                   faith boost

 

and so on... so you slowly progress on a secular or godly tech tree. once a definied amount of technologies is unlocked you have a new option to specialize...

 

 

oh and happy easter too. :-)

 

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Kerby84:

maximize the gamplay for those two playstyles.

I know what you did there,heh; and it's quite genius to take  them into account, it also makes your whole idea so much more interesting.

 

I'm absolutely fine, if someone would take the one way or the other, but honestly I would like to have access to the whole scope, all the possibilities at all time.

So I wouldn't say that changing the playstyle has necessarily be triggered by an expensive miracle or so. Maybe some weird scenario is happening and I'll have to change my playstyle for quite a bit, and once things have calmed down, I can switch back to my original settings.

Another possibility could be that out of my research-actions consequences may arise, I haven't thought of in advance.

 

Just think of the singularity add on...

What if my  " godly-influenced" civilization is not prepared for such  a "secular"  technology?

In combination with different free-will settings this is going to be veeeeery interesting!

 

As for research, there surely have to be limitations. Example:  You shouldn't be able to research  mainly-secular technologies, when having a mostly godly-influenced civilisation and vice versa:  Research  according to the ratio of the "godly/secular" mood.

 

Even when your original intention was to cover up the different playstyles, the combination of both could lead to a very diversive gamplay around research/society, with a huge replay pontential.

Most probably it wouldn't be possible to play the game two times in the exactly same way.

And that's what I'm hoping for, heh.

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People before have made clear their moderate distaste of the way research works in The Universim. I certainly agree to a degree with them, that the research in The Universim is definitely not the best system it can be, and can have major changes to it. I don't have the most creative or useful ideas, but I would like to just suggest that The Universim needs to change its research system. Randomized research bubbles that pop up don't give many people any real sense of progression. "I unlocked fishing piers. Cool." So what does that mean for your nuggets? What does it mean for the progression of your civilization? Well, it's hard to figure that out because it's randomized and doesn't tell people how far they've advanced. A pretty big part of the game is obviously helping your nuggets progress through the ages, but then if research is the driving force behind that progression, why should it be randomized? Let the players see how far they've progressed in research, let them know how close they are to the next era.

 

This is some concept "art" I made in MS Paint because I'm too poor (and too unskilled) for any type of "real" photoshop, but I think it gets my point across to how a research system could look in The Universim.

 

Here's a simple picture I personally made which is my very basic idea of a research tree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The picture shows a progression bar at the bottom, which shows how close someone is to the next age (similar to the bar in Spore, where once you get to the end, you get to the next stage in the game) telling by their research. Finished research could be marked off in some way, I used a check mark because it was the easiest to make, but there most definitely can be other ways to show that a research has been researched before. The greyed-out bubbles are research that hasn't been unlocked yet, and cannot be researched yet. They may be hidden or partly transparent, but I just made them grey, because again, I am using MS Paint. Side research could really mean a lot of things, they could simply add-on to existing research, or do something different entirely. By the last research bubble, you could either research something that changes the nuggets' way of life significantly, or you can just have it be a button to move onto the next era.

 

This is only my very basic idea of a research tree page that can easily let the player identify progression, research, and the different eras. I'm certain there are many better designs, but this is just the one I can make up for right now.

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Would have been great if you have been contributing to the research topic.

 

Here

 

2 hours ago, Eapple1145 said:

This is some concept "art" I made in MS Paint because I'm too poor (and too unskilled) for any type of "real" photoshop, but I think it gets my point across to how a research system could look in The Universim.

You could have sketch it by hand and scan it in and it would be a concept art too. It's not important if you have a great art skill or a progam you can work with. It's an idea. :-) 

 

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On 1.4.2018 at 4:46 PM, threeheaded monkey said:

I'm absolutely fine, if someone would take the one way or the other, but honestly I would like to have access to the whole scope, all the possibilities at all time.

A little greedy, isn't it? ;-) But in some cases it simply does not make sense. I know what you're thinking of. You talked about the real world and believers and non believers. But you see the real world problems this is causing, right? For example the christian religion had many violent problems during it's existence. Crusades, inquisition and witch hunts. Non believers died during this process and a more religious society remained for a period of time.

 

Depending on your actions your nuggets should be a more godly society or a more secular society sooner or later. This results the events like inquisiton for a godly society or enlightenment für a secular society. See it as events and not as decision. ;-) if you behave like a god you have more believers. if you behave like a  mayor you have citizens. ;-)

 

On 1.4.2018 at 4:46 PM, threeheaded monkey said:

Just think of the singularity add on...

What if my  " godly-influenced" civilization is not prepared for such  a "secular"  technology?

In combination with different free-will settings this is going to be veeeeery interesting!

They don't need to be prepared. You have to be prepared as a god ;-) See the logic behind it? ;-)

An intergalactic spaceship with robot chicken zombies arrives. ;-) your nuggets form groups in the temple to pray for shelter. your power arises and charges over time and you blast those robot chicken zombies away with a blink of an eye ;-) or you send some preachers out to proselytize them. maybe you're able to welcome new intergalactic believers that spread your word of love and peace.... at least you tell them so. ;-)

 

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14 hours ago, Kerby84 said:

Would have been great if you have been contributing to the research topic.

 

Oh, sorry, I didn't notice that there was already another discussion about research already. I just had the idea and quickly wrote it up here. Didn't have to check if there was already another research topic. 

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Merged topics :) 

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11 hours ago, Bolerro said:

Merged topics :) 

Well then that's rather useful. Thanks Bolerro!

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Am 3.4.2018 um 08:59 schrieb Kerby84:

A little greedy, isn't it? ;-)

Em, no? :) 

You don't think that there could be a spectrum from "godly" to "secular" in a fluent way?  As for the way you behave, the complexity of your society and thus the possibilities you have to do research?

And why should the nuggets always do the things you were aiming for? In the end they are nothing more than kids and sometimes kids are doing really stupid things even though someone was telling them a hundred times to just not do this.

 

I only see gameplay possibilities here,heh.

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On 6.4.2018 at 1:35 PM, threeheaded monkey said:

You don't think that there could be a spectrum from "godly" to "secular" in a fluent way?

Not really. ;) Because sooner or later there will be a conflict between godly and secular society. For a long time you can have both, but you can sort your black sheeps out then. let the bunkers collapse and only your believers that believed in godly shelter survive. Muahahah ;)

 

On 6.4.2018 at 1:35 PM, threeheaded monkey said:

And why should the nuggets always do the things you were aiming for? In the end they are nothing more than kids and sometimes kids are doing really stupid things even though someone was telling them a hundred times to just not do this.

So you need to practice you parenting skills as a god. ;)  Peace love and sweets for your well behaving believers - detention in the preacher school for those other mortal fools or maybe one or two sacrifices... ;)

 

On 6.4.2018 at 1:35 PM, threeheaded monkey said:

I only see gameplay possibilities here,heh.

me too ^^

 

secular societies could invent capitalism later in the game  instead of prayers :lol:  god is powered trough stock exchanges ;-) well your new name as god is mammon then. but who cares. ;) 

 

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Thinking of the new patch...

 

You're mostly secular. They are a stoneage tribe like every other tribe. You as god do not play a role in their life. They hunt, they breed, they even have to protect themselves from wild animals or they die. You have secular gameplay already. The essential godly gameplay is missing. So actually there is no need for a new secular gameplay mechanic. It's already a secular game. ;) So introducing a godly gameplay mechanic and therefore a godly research path would help. 

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Hey I'm just going to copy some contents of another topic as it directly relates to this topic.

 

The current system of tech and evolution research is kind of cool, but I think it can be way cooler.

a. Tech Research - It's kind of strange how all these technologies just fall into my queue pile when others are completed. A more sophisticated tech tree that requires a villager to research would be nice. Like maybe I want to skip hunting and specialize in fishing and berry picking.

b. Evolution Research - I understand that evolution is just a bunch of random mutations, but only the mutations that actually help a creature to survive is what would be passed down. For example, the black bear in the north pole died off to it's evolutionary descendant (polar bears) because they mutated white fur. If polar bears mutated green fur they would have died instantly. With this in mind, I'd suggest that the system be changed to be dynamic - not just random. If my villagers are living in dry arid conditions, then after living there for some time they should evolve traits such as less water requirement, better heat dissipation, more efficient movement to reduce stamina loss, etc. These traits can then stick with you regardless of what biome your people expand to... but if you maintain that you can only research one at a time, then the player then has to choose which biome he'd prefer to prosper in.

c. Cultural Traits - Ah yes, a third type of research. This would be entirely based on how the god interacts with the village (including through god mail). It isn't like traditional research, where you pick a choice and wait for it to complete. Rather it's a reflection of how the god chooses to handle situations. For example, the god throws fire at a wolf. From there, the villagers will fight off wolves with torches and incorporate fire into more parts of their lives. If the god decides to pick up wolves and relocate them, then the village will too. If the god decides to crush the wolf with a rock, the village will prefer to use traps. Some choices could even make the village change how it looks, like having more torches handy, or people who go to the barber prefer to get certain haircuts, etc.

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On ‎30‎-‎3‎-‎2018 at 1:09 PM, Kerby84 said:

My idea for a research system for a god game in which the player decides how much godly intervention should be avaiable.:

 

My suggestion is to introduce minimum 3 Shrines which evolve depending on your decisions. You Start  with a

 

SHRINE OF WISDOM (or if you want to call it epicenter)

This shrine provides the possibility to choose between different options that have direct influence on the society. Those research options can be bought by spending faith. Which could be generated in a prayer enclave or a temple.

 

Like:

Major options to choose:

-secularity

-freedom of will

-prayer rules

-Sacrifices

 

Basic options to choose:

-clothes

-reproduction

-basic technology

 

By choosing either free will or strict prayer rules you decide if the Shrine of Wisdom changes to a "Heaven Shrine" or a "Secularity Shrine"

 

Heaven Shrine

 

Most technologies are avaiable but main focus is on pleasing a god. You decide by spending faith what to introduce to your Nuggets. Higher technologies have a higher faith cost.
Some special technologies like a faith shield insted of a bunker to protect nuggets from natural disasters are avaiable. Or in the space age a "godly spaceship" that reduces risks if you land on a planet. Of course your faith gain is faster and you can decide how much nuggets pray or if you sacrifice one for an instant faith boost. Nuggets do most things autonomous to stay alive if you did not set a rule for a specific behaviour... like "god decides if you breed"

 

 

Secularity Shrine

 

This shrine is not powered by faith. You have to pay resources and nuggets have to learn to invent things. A school is unlocked if your Shrine of Wisdom transforms to a Secularity Shrine.  Some nuggets still pray in this secular society so you as a god will not die, but you're not mighty... Your might does not suffice to perform mighy powers... So your nuggets have to learn to protect themselves with a bunker against nature. You're more like a manager insteat of a god. People are aware that you exist but most of them do not care about you but they agree that you're their mayor. ;-) Technologies reflect those circumstances. Your nuggets may evolve not so fast but will be more advanced in the space age when it comes to self defense.

 

My2cents. 

 

What are you thinking about this idea?


 

 

 

 

dude this is a full dollar!

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